Debate with a Jew

Q: Do the Jews believe in demons?

Me:

There are angels of light (no free will)…thus they cannot disobey

There are angels of darkness, a.k.a. fallen angels, demons, devils, jinn, etc (free will) …thus they can disobey

In modern interpretations of mainstream Judaism, the latter are largely forgotten, not given emphasis, and simply not taught about.  Believed to be unproductive to embodying God’s laws.  However, those who dig deep enough will find traces of the jewish teachings and beliefs on the subject.

hint: search for “mazzikim, shedim, and ruhot” etc

L R: 

There is no devil in Jewish beliefs.

Me:

"mazzikim, shedim, and ruhot.

shedim (Deut. 32:17; Ps. 106:37; cf. I Cor. 10:20), rendered "demons" or "devils" in most translations

The mazzikim ("harmful spirits") are said to have been created on the eve of the Sabbath of creation (Avot 5:6) but this late reference is the only one made to demons in the entire Mishnah. Among the accomplishments of both Hillel (Sof. 16:9) and his disciple R. Johanan b. Zakkai was their knowledge of "the speech of the shedim" ("devils," Suk. 28a). The latter also gave the analogy of a ru'ah tezazit ("the demon of madness") entering a man and being exorcised, in order to explain to a heathen the anomaly of the laws of the red heifer"

LR:

Yah, don't try quoting something when you don't know the language being translated. Often English words are used that have a specific meaning to certain groups to describe a completely different concept.

I once had a conversation with a rabbi who did a lot of interfaith work. When speaking to Christians he would use the word ‘hell’ to describe a Jewish concept on the basis that ‘hell’ is a word they're familiar with. I argued that ‘hell’ has such a deeply ingrained meaning for Christians that his audience would only hear that ‘Jews believe in hell’, completely ignoring that he was describing a concept that is completely unrelated to the Christian concept of ‘hell’. He agreed in the end and said that he was no longer going to use the word ‘hell’ when speaking about Jewish beliefs.

So, once again, no devil in Judaism and demons are nothing more than folklore.

Me:

Perhaps you are more knowledgeable and learned than rabbis, the talmud and torah translators combined. Or perhaps not

LR:

No, I just happen to know how to read Jewish writings in addition to knowing the context. You quoted something without the necessary knowledge to understand what you were quoting.

Me:

Perhaps you could enlighten me then. Or maybe you are deflecting since you do not know what they mean.

Me:

No?

Ok. Then i will give you some more quotes using the words in context.

35. And they mingled with the nations and learned their deeds. 36. They worshipped their idols, which became a snare for them. 37. They slaughtered their sons and daughters to the demons. 38. They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters whom they slaughtered to the idols of Canaan, and the land became polluted with the blood. 39. And they became unclean through their deeds, and they went astray with their acts.

Tehillim (Psalms), 106.35-39

17. They sacrificed to demons, which have no power, deities they did not know, new things that only recently came, which your forefathers did not fear.

Devarim (Deuteronomy), 32.17

Shedim is the Hebrew word for demons. The wordshedim appears only twice (always plural) in theTanakh, at Psalm 106:37 and Deuteronomy 32:17. It was possibly a loan-word from Akkadian in which the word sedu referred to a protective, benevolent spirit.

P.s. the original word is akkadian anyway...not hebrew. Doubt you speak akkadian. So thats probably why you do not understand its proper meaning.

LR:

Contrary to what you appear to believe, I do not monitor Quora so that I can respond to your comments immediately. Nor will I respond to aggressive and disrespectful comments such as what you wrote.

If you wish a response from me fix your tone.

Me:

hah! pot calling the kettle black

i wont press the issue any further. the facts quoted above are sufficient to answer the matter (even without your respected opinions or insights). thank you and good day.

LR:

Pointing out that one shouldn't rely on quotes when one doesn't understand the language or context isn't rude or aggressive. It's making a valid point. You didn't post any ‘facts’.

1. You posted an out of context quote of a discussion of false gods worshiped by other religions.
2. You quoted from a Christian Bible which is not considered valid within Judaism. There are no mentions of a devil anywhere in the Tanach (Jewish Bible).

So again, work on your tone and approach.

Me:

Firstly - you assume no one else speaks or understands Hebrew apart from yourself. that is arrogant and rude.

Secondly - there is an exact phrase in hebrew for “false god” and “idol” and this is not the word which was used. Even if the case you are making is that the false gods were being referred to - it does not exclude the fact that the word’s original meaning is “demons (sheddim - שֵּׁדִים )” - which may be used to refer to others’ gods in a derogatory sense - however this only acknowledges demons were known to exist and that they were not seen positively in the eyes of the writer. To say that the word is just a metaphor for idols or false gods is to play word gymnastics and reinterpret scripture to suit modern times.

p.s. - here are the same passages from the Tanakh (first one from Psalms/Tehillim and the second from Deuteronomy/Devarim)

‏106:37 וַיִּזְבְּחוּ אֶתבְּנֵיהֶם, וְאֶתבְּנוֹתֵיהֶם לַשֵּׁדִים

‏32:17 יִזְבְּחוּ, לַשֵּׁדִים לֹא אֱלֹהַּ ר אֱלֹהִים, לֹא יְדָעוּם ס חֲדָשִׁים מִקָּרֹב בָּאוּ, ר לֹא שְׂעָרוּם אֲבֹתֵיכֶם ס

LR:

1. I make no such assumption. If you yourself spoke Hebrew you would have known that the quotes you provided weren't correct translations. Instead, you quoted the Christian Bible (the new trend is for Christian groups to print Christian Bibles next to the original Hebrew).
2. There are a number of terms used to refer to false gods.
3. Shall I teach you what your religion really teaches using English translations of your religion’s writings?

There is no devil in Judaism and demons are relegated to folklore. Your personal opinion isn't going to change this fact.

Me:

you might as well put fingers in your ears saying “lalalalala”

even if you grew up with Hebrew as your first language - this would still not qualify you to know the correct meaning of words such as these without deeper study. They are not used in everyday contexts and the truth is no-one today speaks biblical Hebrew with any fluency. Furthermore, this word (like many in Hebrew) is a loan word from another language (Akkadian). Its original meaning is demons. You simply need to put it in an online translator to confirm this (שֵּׁדִים - copy, google translate, paste - try).

Granted, word meanings can change depending on the context - however, this is not the point I am demonstrating. The original meaning (as used by the author who wrote the passages) is “demon”.

If a man calls a child a “demon”, we all know the word is being used figuratively. The meaning of the word in this context is “naughty boy”, etc. Over time, the word may only be understood as “naughty boy” because no-one refers or believes in “demons” anymore. nevertheless, this doesn't mean the word used should be translated as “naughty boy”

anyway - I'm not trying to persuade you to believe in demons. The mainstream Jewish belief system has relegated “demons” to mythical creatures and folklore. that's fine. but if you study the passages in their original context - understood as those in the time understood it - you will find they did believe in demons.

S.a.a.s

To type ﷺ in MS Word or any MS office Document:

(1) Type FDFA.

(2) Type ‘Alt+x’. (Hold on to ‘Alt’ key and press ‘x’ key.) As soon as you type ‘Alt+x”, ‘FDFA’ is converted to ﷺ

Unicode for ‘ﷺ’ is ‘FDFA’

Jallajalaalahu

FDFB

What is the punishment for a husband who is abusive and bullies his wife?

It is severe. If not in this life then the next. The husband has caused harm physicallly and emotionally to the one that he was entrusted to protect and care for.

In islam the husband and wife are equal in value just as a father and son are equal in value (except for good deeds) however one (the husband) is given authority over the other (wife...child). Any good manager will know this doesnt mean being a tyrant but being responsible and caring. They should cover them with their wing so that they are safe and secure from their own claws and the claws of others.

This is different from what western value teaches since they emphasise the independence of man and wife. However if they are independent of one another..then why marry?

Islamically the wife is dependent on the husband for protection and comfort..but if she is not even safe from him..his claws or words...then it is a bigger injustice than if he did it to a stranger.

He should ask himself...would he give the same treatment to his own daughter? If so then he is a bad father as well as a bad husband. But If not, then he should realise that his wife is also under his care just as his daughter is (except the wife has more rights than the daughter). A good husband is very much like a good father...with some obvious exceptions.

He should reflect on his behaviour. Repent. Learn hoe the prophet was to his wife. And he should fear allah and His punishment. The supplication of the oppressed is always answered.

Tewekkel and eemaan

Belief (eemaan) = based on clear proof / evidence (Once you have seen clear proof/evidence of something, then there is nothing left but to believe - if you are sincere).

Faith (tewakkel) = belief without clear proof/evidence

But some things have purposely not been given clear proof/evidence to see who will have faith which is a more virtuous quality (e.g. belief in the unseen, etc)

However, how are we to know that what we have faith in is the truth, if we cannot test or prove it?  Isnt this dangerous - since we may believe something false (like many do who have "blind faith")

The solution is to only have faith in something that was confirmed by an authority (e.g. the Qur'an, the Prophet Muhammad s.a.a.s, etc).  This is called appealing to authority.   The authority itself must have proven itself with clear proof / evidence.  However, once it has established its authority as a trustworthy source, anything coming from that authority is reliable and most likely true. 

In islam, this is done all the time and the only way muslims should have faith.  God does not directly speak to every muslim to tell them to believe in Him and what He wants of them.  Nor does He give each of them their orders directly.  Rather muslims have faith in God and His orders as reported to them from the Qur'an and the Prophetic traditions (Sunnah). They appeal to these as authority.  The Qur'an has numerous proofs of its authenticity from God.  So too has the prophet proven himself a prophet and messenger of God with miracles, character, knowledge and true prophecy, etc.  Then the transmission of the hadith are also graded upon their reliability to ensure they remain a reliable and authoritative source.

Non muslims also have faith in things (including atheists).  When we walk into a building, we do not immediately proceed to test the structural integrity of the building in order to prove it will not fall down on us.  We have trust that it will remain standing.  This faith (belief without proof) is due to an appeal to authority - we trust those who built it and the building regulations as they have established a reputation and proven themselves. 

Good and bad deeds

A good deed is any act that brings benefit to yourself or others and this can include preventing a bad deed

A bad deed is any act that brings harm to yourself or others and every harm someone feels wipes away a bad deed of theirs.

An act that brings no benefit nor harm is neither a good or bad deed, only a waste of time and something that prevents you from achieving more good deeds

salat ad-DuHa (Forenoon) and salat al-layl (Night)

The two best times for optional prayers are salat ad-DuHa (forenoon) and salat/qiyam al-Layl (night). Another one im fond of is the sunnah of bilal (r.a) who would pray 2 rakaat after doing wudu. That combined with the sunnah of Muhammad (s.a.a.s) of always being in wudu makes it a common salah to do.   However to capitalise on the rewards there are special salawat which have been taught by the prophet (s.a.a.s).  These special prayers can be read at the special times to perform 2 sunnah at once! Ad-Duha: Salat liraf adhab al qabr (x2) Salat at-tasbiH (x4) Al-Layl: Salat to ask for something (x12) PRAYER FOR THE REMOVAL OF THE TORMENT OF THE TOMB [AS-SALAT LI-RAF' 'ADHAB AL-QABR]. According to a traditional report, transmitted on the authority of 'Abdu'llah ibn al-Hasan, 'Ali (may Allah be well pleased with him) stated that Allah's Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) once said: If someone performs two cycles of ritual prayer [rak'atain]--reciting in one of the two cycles the last part of [the Sura of] the Criterion [al-Furqan], from "Tabaraka 'lladhi ja'ala fi 's-sama'i burujan [Blessed is He who has placed in the heaven mansions of the stars]" until he reaches the end of the Sura--then starting into the second cycle, and reciting in it, after the Opening Sura [al-Fatiha], from the beginning of the Sura of the Believers [Surat al-Muminin] until he reaches "Fa-tabaraka 'llahu Ahsanu 'l-khaliqin [So Blessed be Allah, the Fairest of creators]"--he will be safe from the double-dealing of the jinn and of humankind.  He will receive his record sheet with his right hand on the Day of Resurrection [Yawm al-Qiyama].  He will be safe from the torment of the tomb, and safe from the greatest terrror [al-faza' al-akbar].  The Book will teach him, even if he is not an eager student.  He will be relieved of poverty.  Allah will bring him [into compliance with] the law [hukm].  He will give him insight into His Book, which He has sent down to His Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace).  He will instill in him the evidence he will need [in order to make his case] on the Day of Resurrection [Yawm al-Qiyama].  He will install a light in his heart.  Thus he will not grieve when other people grieve, and he will not be afraid when they are afraid.  Light will be installed in his faculty of vision, the love of this world will be extracted from his heart, and he will be recorded in the presence of Allah as one of the champions of truth [as-siddiqin] CONCERNING THE SPECIAL MERIT OF THE RITUAL PRAYER OF GLORIFICATION [SALAT AT-TASBIH]. As for the special quality of the ritual prayer of glorification [salat at-tasbih], we learn from a traditional report, transmitted [by a chain of reliable authorities] from Ibn 'Abbas (may Allah be well pleased with him and with his father), that Allah's Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) once said to al-'Abbas ibn 'Abdi'l-Muttalib (may Allah be well pleased with him) : O 'Abbas, my dear uncle!  I really must give you a gift!  I really must make you a present!  I really must do you a favor!  I really must let you know about ten special practices [khisal], for, if you carry them out, Allah will forgive you your sin, the first and the last of it, the old and the new, the unintentional and the deliberate, the small and the great, the private and the public.   You must perform four cycles of ritual prayer [raka'at], reciting in each cycle the Opening Sura of the Book [Fatihat al-Kitab] and one other Sura. When you have finished the Qur'anic recitation in the first cycle [rak'a], and while you are still standing erect, you must say-fifteen times: Glory be to Allah, subhana 'llahi  and praise be to Allah, wa 'l-hamdu li'llahi and there is no god but Allah, wa la ilaha illa 'llahu and Allah is Supremely Great! wa 'llahu Akbar. Then you must perform the act of bowing, pronouncing it [the same affirmation] ten times while you are in the posture of bowing [raki'].  Then you must raise your head from the act of bowing [rak'a], and pronounce it ten times. Then you must perform the act of prostration, and pronounce it ten times. Then you must raise your head from the posture of prostration [sujud], and pronounce it ten times. Then you must perform the [second] act of prostration, and pronounce it ten times. Then you must raise your head from the posture of prostration [sujud], and pronounce it ten times. That all adds up to a total of seventy-five in each cycle [rak'a].  You must do the same in all four cycles [raka'at].  If you are able to perform this special prayer once every day, then do so.  If you cannot do it that often, then once every Friday [the Day of Congregation].  If you cannot do it that often, then once every month.  If you cannot do it that often, then once every year.  If you cannot do it that often, then at least once in your lifetime.  According to another version of this report, the Qur'anic recitation should be: In the first cycle:  the Opening Sura of the Book [Fatihat al-Kitab] and "Sabbihi 'sma Rabbi-ka 'l-A'la... [Glorify the Name of your Lord the Most High...]."  In the second cycle:  the Opening Sura of the Book [Fatihat al-Kitab] and "Idha zulzilat... [When (the earth) is shaken...]."  In the third cycle:  the Opening Sura of the Book [Fatihat al-Kitab] and "Qul ya ayyuha 'l-kafirun... [Say:  'O you unbelievers...']."   In the fourth cycle:  the Opening Sura of the Book [Fatihat al-Kitab] and "Qul Huwa 'llahu Ahad [Say:  'He is Allah, One!']" According to yet another traditional report, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) once said to Ja'far ibn Abi Talib (may Allah be well pleased with him) : I really must make you a present!  I really must do you a favor!  I really must give you a gift! (Our informant went on to quote the rest of the report [hadith].) SPECIAL REQUEST PRAYER (DO NOT TEACH IT TO THE FOOLISH FOR THEIR PRAYER WILL BE ANSWERED): Pray 12 rakaat (6 x rakaatain) reading the opening surah (fatihah) followed by another surah.  on the last rakah, before saluting the angels to the right and left, go back into sujud (prostration). read: surah fatihah x7 then the following dua x10 la ilaha illa allaah waHdahu laa sharika lah lahu lmulk wa lahu lHamd yuHiyu wa yumeet ...etc then say I ask You by Your immense face, there is nothing greater than it and I ask You by Your perfect words, there is no good or corrupt person that exceeds them and I ask You by Your most beautiful names, those I know and do not know ...(your request here)... ameen

Who were the original Jews and Arabs?

OK. So…

It can be argued that the Jews are synonymous with the Hebrews descendants of Heber / Eber (a.s.) son of Shelah son of Arpaxad son of Shem son of Noah (a.s).

Alternatively, if you are referring specifically to the Israelites / Children of Israel then they are the descendants of the 12 tribes/sons of Israel/Jacob (a.s.) son of Isaac (a.s.) son of Abram/Abraham (a.s.) son of Terah son of Nahor son of Serug son of Reu son of Peleg son of Heber (a.s.)

now…

things get interesting when you ask who were the original Arabs; descendants of Qahtan /Joktan son of Heber (a.s)! (Whaaat? so… would that mean Heber; father of the Hebrews was also father of the Arabs through his son Qahtan?  Arab historians would rather claim that Heber/Hud (prophet) was one of the first Arabs, since he lived in Arabia. Nevertheless, it could imply that Heber was the common ancestor of the Hebrews and Arabs! - baring in mind that these distinctions did not yet exist at this time in history)

NOTE 1:

It is important not to confuse the original Qahtanite Arabs (who originated from the southern regions of Arabia - i.e.Yemen) with later Ishmaelites or Adnanites who only became Arab by intermarrying with existing Arabian tribes.

NOTE 2:

A common misconception is that Jews descend from Isaac (a.s) son of Abram/Abraham (a.s.) with his wife Sarai/Sarah whereas Arabs descend from Ishmael (a.s.) son of Abraham (a.s) with his Egyptian maidservant Hagar / Hagar in Islam. As you can see, the true history is slightly more complex and intertwined